names used of the aima (saw)

i have a question about the names of the paaks (saw) being used by non-syeds.



do we have any proofs any history, anything that tells us that in the time of rasoolillah (saw) new muslims/non syeds, kept the direct names of rasoolilah (saw)?

also the same goes to all the paaks (saw) in the time of each imam (saw) was there anyone who kept any of their (saw) names? not forgetting non syed women keeping bibis (saw) name?

some argue being syed isn't being from the line of maula (saw) its true meaning is a momin, as in only a Spiritual connection not a physical blood connection, so anyone can become a syed/momin, if any of the believers of this idea are reading this, where does keeping a name of the paaks (saw) stand with you?

if the tradition of keeping these pure names by non syeds began after the gaybat of maula (saw)

would this not mean that for a non syed to keep such names is incorrect? since the names were not used at the time of any of the imams (saw). If thats the case how wrong are many people for keeping these names?

Anyways, just a question, i don't know much about this at all, but yeah, anyone show me the light? lol

true say, lol, thanks for that, no these are things that alot of the old syed traditionalist speak about. So i wanted to know what other people say about this, to clear a few things. They say its ok for the non syeds to keep the indirect names for example, zulfiqar Ali, meaning sword of Ali, just like a sunni brother i know had a direct name as gafoor, he changed it to abdal-ghafoor, so it becomes servant of the forgiver rather than being the forgiver.

So you're confirming in the time of rasooolilah (saw) there were people with the name of (directly) muhamad, also same goes for all imams (saw) names.

"narrators of hadith had kept names of the Aima (as)"

can you give a few examples? of directly kept names by the narrators of the time?

"Likewise before a child is born the Aima (as) have told us to name the unborn child Muhammed or Ali"

yeah so this is for all syeds and non syeds? means names can be kept directly and indirectly by both.

just for argument sake do you have the ref of the hadih of the aima (saw) saying this?

thanks

Brother what traditionalist Syeds? half these people who are these Traditional Syeds also had names like Umar and Usman in there family trees. Due to Taqqiyah alot of sunni names where kept. Up untill today people don't even know the proper name of Shabaz Kalandar. Some claim it was Shah Hussain others Usman Marvandi and along with many others. But anyway what ever his name was evidance shows that keeping the names of the Aima (as) does not have a separate law for none syeds. As for example let us consider the following the name of the compiler of Al Kafi his name was Muhammed and he was alive during the time of the Imam (as). I am sure one of the biggest compiler of hadith would have been aware if the Aima (as) had narrated such a thing. When looking at the Rijal of a hadith you will notice alot of these people have names of the Aima (as) and they where around to hear the hadiths of the Imams (as). Refer to the names of narrators in Al Kafi and this will not come as no suprise. And as for the hadith on calling a baby either Muhammed of Ali, I had read this many years back. At present I do not have this referance as I didnt think it would be needed as it is a matter of common sense. Unless off course you have a hadith which the Aima (as) say that you can not keep there names in such a manner...

thanks, ok, yeah i agree sunni names were kept too in Taqqiyah, but thats a totally different topic.


you give an example of compiler of al kafi, are we speaking about
Ahmad ibn Muhammad ? the name meaning highly praised son of muhamad? and not being the direct name of muhamad. Like abu bakr, this name isn't saying hes bakr but the son of bakr (la). people have allahs names within their names but they dont keep them DIRECTLY, for example abdal aziz, abdal rehman, abdal meaning servant of.

just to help you alittle with what i mean by DIRECT name, i'l question it further, this way you will know what i mean and maybe can correct me.

1 would it be ok for a non syed (for a fair test making him a very good shia)to keep the name musa kazim? in both the present day and in the time of any of the imams (saw)?

2 Were any sahabis given the direct names of the aima (saw)?

3 would you agree for a non-syed to keep the following surnames:
naqvi,kazmi,jaffri,rizwi.

so to reply to this question correctly, any persons, sahabis (as) compilers names you give as an example, it's important to provide full names, in order to see if they are DIRECT names.

since you said you have read a hadith about anyone can keep the DIRECT names of the paaks (saw). Thats why i said, would be nice to see the reference of Your claim. But if you don't want to provide or can't remeber where you seen it or you find it a waste of time, then i guess worldcup would have been a better topic to discuss lol.

this was a simple and straight forward question, (whether common sense or not) which required a few simple examples of DIRECT names (in full) of non syeds in maulas (saw) time. Come on brother, give me a few DIRECT name used by compilers and sahabis and case wil be closed.

many thanks

1) There is nothing in Quran and Hadith to say we can not. unless you have a Hadith or Verse of the Quran?

2) The mother of Imam Ali (as) her (sa) name was Fatima bint Assad.

3) I do not agree with none Syed people keeping such surnames..

Q1 would it be ok for a non syed (for a fair test making him a very good shia)to keep the name musa kazim? in both the present day and in the time of any of the imams (saw)?


A1) There is nothing in Quran and Hadith to say we can not. unless you have a Hadith or Verse of the Quran?

....so far we havent had anything against it or for it.


Q2 Were any sahabis given the direct names of the aima (saw)?

A2) The mother of Imam Ali (as) her (sa) name was Fatima bint Assad.

...sahabi?


Q3 would you agree for a non-syed to keep the following surnames:
naqvi,kazmi,jaffri,rizwi.

A3) I do not agree with none Syed people keeping such surnames

...you don't agree to a non-syed keeping a surname name as naqvi, rizwi, kazmi? why?
and its fine to keep muhamad, Ali naqi, musa kazim, jafar sadiq as a whole name for a non syed? so why this disagreement with a non syed keeping it as a surname?

Ahmad ibn Muhammad the compiler of al kafi (i believe you were refering to) has the name meaning highly praised son of muhamad? so hes called son of muhamad (even though its an indirect name), so whats so different in having the surname alone of any of the imams (saw) for a non syed? and keeping it as a whole for a non syed?


i don't think i will be getting a bang on answer for this to be fair. i'l leave it to saying, since you are a brother and have witnessed a hadith confirming syed and non syed
are open and free to use the names of Aima (saw) directly and indirectly. Also taking in account there's no quranic verse against this. Guess you must be right.

i think spain beat portugal lol,

again many thanks

Q1 )

Imam Musa (as) , the son of Jafar (as), said:
Poverty shall not enter a home in which a girl is named Fatimah , or a boy is named Muhammad, Ahmad, Ali, Hassan, Husayn, Jafar, Talib or Abdullah. [Vasa'il, v.21, p.396]


This is very much for it, and as I said before, unless you have a hadith sayying we can not then please show me?

Q2) No she was not a companion but she (sa) was not a Syed either. She also shared the name of Bibi Fatimah (sa).

Q3) There is a world of a differance in having surnames which would automatically make one look as If he is a Sayyid when they are not.